The Pope

trepolpen

Major Contributor
Hello, 46Traveller,
Thanks for your reply which I appreciate for its sincerity. When I read statements such as yours, however, it’s hard to know where to start. In part, I understand well where you are coming from but I can’t help feeling that the fictional ‘The Da Vinci Code’ or Dawkin’s ‘The God Delusion’ have become your Bibles. In no way is the real Bible one human’s work or one man’s literature, but a library or compendium of ideas, allegorical teachings, metaphors, factual history, teaching stories, songs and poetry gathered under one pair of covers.

Christianity, in the form of Roman Catholicism, is the interpretation of the Bible by one Church with the Pope at its helm as Christ’s representative. Thus instead of the thousand and one sects which take things literally and often on a fundamentalist basis, the Church unifies Christ’s message by its traditional understanding rather than by the precise words as found in the Bible and continues to interpret with one voice through the college of its cardinals, archbishops, bishops and priests. It presents an ideal which is to be attained to during our short human lives as we look to returning home to the Father. After all, when we have left this world as mortal flesh, what will be left of us? Nothing unless we take Christ’s word for it and believe that our spirits survive. Was the Christ presented by the New Testament a charlatan or did he mean what He said? Can you find fault with his words? If you can, then it is probably because as God’s mouthpiece the concepts are not something to be grasped without consideration. His words have not been altered but tempered and refined for a world which has passed through different times and cultures just as the Old Testament shows. In fact, there are many modern situations which are not covered directly by the Bible though there are also certain absolutes which can never be altered.

As you so rightly say, some Popes and so-called upholders of the Church have badly let Christ’s ideals down and for them there is little excuse but that does not alter the fundamental truths or disparage those who have lived up to Christ’s ideals in an exemplary way. Look! In simplistic terms, this is not to say, as the R. Catholic I am, that one must be a RC to get to heaven. I am utterly certain that nobody is denied passage unless they deliberately, wilfully and knowingly isolate themselves from God’s love themselves. There is more than one sincere way to God’s kingdom. None of us is worthy of God’s promise but then He is the perfect father and loves us unconditionally. However, He is also perfectly polite and does not force Himself upon us. We have free will and are His sons and daughters, not His slaves or robots. Nevertheless, Christ, as God manifested on earth, was trying to show us that our happiness is only possible in this life by perfect selflessness. That this was very difficult, Christ showed by His own suffering during His own mortal life, but guaranteed that all would be prepared for us when we should return to Him in heaven.

What you have said, TabTab is very fair comment and I share very many of your thoughts. Too many to comment on them in fact! No-one ever convinced another by mere words and I shall not try to do so. In so many ways, Christians have failed to match up to their fine words and I’m one of them. This is the paramount reason why God’s kingdom is not visible on earth. However, Christ’s truths though rarely translated into the lives of Christians underpin subliminally all cultures where there are good human qualities to be found, regardless of creed. In fact, Gandhi said ‘I like your Christ but I don’t like your Christians and he had a good point. My wife’s old Devonian great grandmother used to quote ‘’Ansom is as ansom does’! Nevertheless, where religion is concerned, it is the truths that we need to recognize before we choose to pursue them and faith (i.e trust in Christ’s promises), is all in religion.

It is easy to sympathise with your attitude towards the alleged wealth of the Church but since much of this is wrapped up in the untouchable form of revered historical artifacts and books and museum pieces which were the work, bequests and donations of generous pilgrims and artists and the faithful over centuries it is not easy to translate them into hard cash - though much has been sold off over the years. Let us not forget the necessary running costs of a universal church on a worldwide scale. I confess that I have no facts or figures to declare myself.

I also see what you mean about ritual which you refer to as archaic. This is partly the effect of tradition which should never be thrown off will-nilly but it is also for believers a way of applying solemnity and recognizing God’s majesty. It is human nature that we invest all important occasions in our lives with a degree of pomp and ceremony whether of a secular or religious nature eg birth and naming days, special dinners, investitures, celebrational parties, prize-givings, weddings, speeches, memorials, special music, clothes, words etc. It is also true to say that sometimes informality is more relaxing and requires less of an effort particularly in this age when we are more inclined to lose a sense of occasion and bring things down to a mundane level. With the church ceremonies, the intention is to rise above this and to direct our thoughts beyond this world by symbol and ritual, to give a sense of moment to an important occasion. Holy Communion is for me Christ actually being with me and empowering me in my daily attempt to get closer to Him and to show it in my daily life away from the interior of church and the Sunday Mass. As has been said, ‘The Church is full of hypocrites – come inside, there’s room for plenty more!’

This life is largely a mystery and as such, we can never have all the answers since such is the nature of God and the complexity of his creation of the universe. One thing is sure – once again, unless Jesus Christ was a charlatan and a liar - God does not intend to annihilate us, his beloved creation. I feel that God does not ever condemn us even if his earthly representatives have done so over the ages. We condemn ourselves by separating ourselves from Him. He seeks our ultimate happiness but it is up to us humbly and with trust to make a sincere effort along the way but not to imagine that we can deserve it or earn it.

These are my thoughts and the way I see things but everyone has his/her own conscience and opinion and yes that will surely be the same God who remains hidden within us.
 

tabtab13

Active Member
Ah .... tpp - reading your last post reminds me so much of a dear friend I have in London who I've known for years. A lot of what you've written I can almost hear his voice speaking it! The two of us spent many an evening in the pub discussing the meaning of life, what different religions are all about, who or what is meant by God, where have we come from, where are we going, what's life all about and what happens next, etc - it's an endless topic. I can see the passion of your beliefs in what you have written. Hey - maybe one day you and I will have the opportunity to talk more in depth about it all.
 

trepolpen

Major Contributor
That was a pleasant reply, TabTab! Yes, it would be interesting to have a chat some time though I am not too good saying things and find it easier to express things like this in writing.

With my Christian name, 'Philip', I often feel moved in the midst of my own doubts and uneasiness to think over an excerpt from the Bible, that is, John Ch.14 where I tell myself that Christ's words are to me when he addresses the apostles and particularly Philip. I don't usually like to quote chapter and verse (I lhad to look this up!) but these words say a lot and I hope forum participants will forgive me as they seem very relevant:

1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You trust in God, trust also in me.

2 In my Father's house there are many places to live in; otherwise I would have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you,

3 and after I have gone and prepared you a place, I shall return to take you to myself, so that you may be with me where I am.

4 You know the way to the place where I am going.

5 Thomas said, 'Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?'

6 Jesus said: I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

7 If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.

8 Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.' Jesus said to him,

9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, "Show us the Father"?

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.

11 You must believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe it on the evidence of these works.

12 In all truth I tell you, whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, and will perform even greater works, because I am going to the Father.

13 Whatever you ask in my name I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.
 
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46traveller

Member
Hi trepolpen, this is, and always will be a subject "Up for discussion". I'm not searching for anything to belong to, in the way of groups that support certain doctrines and rules to follow. Far from it, the freedom and belonging I feel are far greater than any cult or chosen organisation could possibly offer or promise. The various tribes and beliefs I have met in my travels, open up worlds that have long been forgotten by others in the western world, and some or the rituals are downright cruel and seem to be linked to ancient stories passed down through the generations. Now, having no contact (until recently) with men of the cloth, these people have followed blindly their version of faith, ritual, call it what you like. Since contact with religion they have lost something that made them special, their version of "The Truth", handed down over the centuries. What missionaries have done in the name of religion is forced these folk into a system that WE consider correct. How dare WE as a society tell these individuals that their god is not as good as ours?? These tribes have knowledge that includes plants that cure various ailments, (that we are only now realising the importance of) and so many other skills that we frown on. They are told "You must cover yourself" why?? Just when will religion of any denomination stop thinking they are the true one, and stop telling and selling these tribes our version?? The native Red Indians were doing ok until we arrived, Savages, not until we arrived, they called the Earth Mother and respected it, now they own Casinos. Not exactly a step towards understanding, more of a kick in the teeth to their ancestors. We're just not happy unless everyone has organised religion of some sort. Religion costs money, the native tribes in Peru along the Amazon now have to sell their fish for money, just to survive. Gone is the barter system, clothes now have to be purchased so that their children can attend a RC mission school. No more elders teaching them how to survive in a harsh landscape, just two nuns and a priest conducting a brand new form of education, that they themselves cannot prove conclusively true, and is of little use to their way of life.
There is no form of religion available today that I personally need, the truth is out there, and that's the secret, nobody can say where. It's certainly not in any building, no matter how grand. I feel closer to being a human being just sitting on a rock looking out to sea, than all the Huts churches and cathedrals I've ever been in. OK some of the stained glass work is beautiful, but only when my Sun shines through it.
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trepolpen

Major Contributor
Interesting to read your views, 46 Traveller. I am not directly trying to convert anyone, neither do I think I am fit to do so. I shall certainly not come knocking on your door apostatising but neither do I feel that I should be cowed or so passive as to withhold my own feelings and convictions. I respect the fact that you ponder things, and am reassured by your obvious searching for truth in your own life and in your own way. You are a thinking being and not a dullard. You have a right to your own conclusions as long as you aren't so cocksure as to have refused to keep looking, developing and modifying them.

You sound as though you lead, or have led, a fascinating life of travel with sufficient first hand experience of the Amazon tribes to make a judgement. You seem to think that their lives have been polluted by Christianity rather than other exploitative prospectors and developers. You sound actively anti-church or religion but believe me when I say that if there is an afterlife, I would not like you to think I feel I am superior, or any safer than you of an appointed place in heaven. And after all, we learn in the Bible that there are many 'mansions' (different dimensions?) prepared there for us! As for the missionary nuns and priests working on behalf of the Church among the primitive or needy, they often put the practical needs of their charges way before the considerable risk to their own skins and certainly over and above insisting on any dogma, having as a priority that simply of bringing a peaceful message of a loving creator. This will be reflected first through their own devotion and practical help, I think.

Anyone who appreciates the beauty and wonder of the universe and respects it has to have a lot going for them and obviously looks beyond their nose! Best wishes to you, 46Tr!
 

46traveller

Member
Hi trepolpen it's great to hear of others feelings and convictions, you have voiced yours with humility and truth, that is worth everyones respect. My journey has taken me on many paths, mostly I have been disturbed at what man is capable of doing to man, right from the Spanish Conquistadors invasion of S. America, to the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. Or maybe if you want an older Christian example The Crusades. It just all seems to end up with huge loss of life, and a populus segregated by one religion or another. What's in a name ?? Evidently enough to cause suffering to the very people it promised to protect. My Sun thing (i won't call it worship, that would be wrong) it's just something that humans have relied on since time began, and without it some of the tribes in Africa would even today lose their way crossing deserts. They still use the Sun in that the prayer mats face a certain way during prayer, they are buried similarly. The Sun is my thing and every time I see it I'm thankful.
 

trepolpen

Major Contributor
Living in Cornwall during the past July and August I'm pretty thankful when I see the sun, too!

Last point coming from me on this , I hope

Here is a statement by Stephen L. Carter, page 252 of 'Civility' (1998):
"The statement that wars have been fought in the name of God is a non sequitur. As the theologian Walter Wink once pointed out, more people have died in the twentieth century’s secular wars than in the preceding fifty centuries of fighting combined…. No religious war in history, not all the religious wars of history added together, did as much damage as this century’s wars of nationalism and ideology. So if we are to ban religious sentiment from public life because it has been responsible for so much horror, let us not forget to ban advocacy of freedom or justice as well."
 
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tabtab13

Active Member
Hi 46traveller, I'd just like to chip in about your reference to Native Americans - I think that whole episode of history (not just the religious aspect of it) was shameful and a disgrace full stop. Same goes for the Aboriginal people in Australia.

I think true Christians are humble people and unfortunately they end up being tarred with the same brush as those with more 'militant' tendencies - "My God is the true God and you will convert or - else". It's one thing 'spreading the Word' and respecting if no one agrees - and another thing aggressively enforcing it.

We're force fed the dangers of Muslim fundamentalists on a day to day basis, yet we have right wing fundamentalist Christians in the US who are just plain frightening with what they want, what they believe and how they see things.
 

46traveller

Member
Hi tab tab, when you really look into how our ancestors behaved on the way to where we are now, it really does sicken me. The people that decide what to teach students about history should be a little more interested in events that England participated in resulting in "The Empire". The battle of Hastings isn't quite as brutal as the Opium Wars for instance. Ah, I could go on forever but there's just not enough time or space.
Christians are as you say mostly humble folk, until you dig deep into the past and then they turn out to be just as bloodthirsty as the others. For all the fine works and ideas since those times, now they are mentioned in all the reference books, but look a bit deeper and the horrors come to light.
I spent a fair bit of time in Africa five years ago and stayed with various families including muslims. Maybe it's me or my outlook, they were relatively poor, yet I was made very welcome just about everywhere I went, with lots of folk interested in helping if they could, and recomending places and friends to stay with in the next village. I've read a lot about how "Dodgy" it is to travel in certain areas and I didn't go to a few places because of advice received about war zones from locals. Now there's nothing in the newspapers in this country about a small war in Senegal five years back but the armed militia were there and an Australian guy I travelled with and myself witnessed it before we managed to get across to The Gambia, and safety. Those guys had no religion, killing and maiming Muslims and Christians alike, and I guess were just out for blood.
On the fundamentalist Christian front, I feel a lot safer now that young Bush hasn't got his finger on the button any more. There again I don't think the USA has had what I would call a proper president since JFK, and look what happened to him. As for the present religious leaders (take your pick) if they with all their powers and followers can't stop the wars, who can ?? Lots of fine words lead to talks and meetings amongst all religions, but nothing gets done on the ground, and innocent people get killed.
My conclusion is that the war machine will never stop, after all the arnaments industry is vital to the worlds economy, we also need oil and minerals and of course an oil pipeline across Afghanistan. So for all the combined powers of religion to stop this insanity, is doubtful. The religous leaders talk the talk, but when it comes to major decisions they just don't walk the walk. All they can offer is prayers, and well meant sermons. Not enough for me I'm afraid.
 
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