9/11 conspiracy what do you think ??

[treeve]

8) As far as foreknowledge is concerned, any government, competent or incompetent has an intelliegence network, it is up to the paper pushers to inform the bureaucrats and the decision makers to act upon that information. In any government that has any sense at all, there is a think tank (yes, they do think, though not rationally) of possible attack and possible strike, with plausible response. Politics is controlled by other factors than banging it out in a Senate or over a large mahogany desk. there are incredible external forces at work, all of which deflect the mind from a true assessment of what to do. They are not all squeaky clean, as much as that is the image they wish to project. When the brown stuff hits the fan, they are the first ones on the floor, covering their assets. Smoke screens, blame passing, silence. Let us face it, even if you did not believe a report of an impending attack, tell me anyone who would not phone their aging aunt not to take a flight on that day.
9) At any one time many thousands are under surveillance, are they all supposed to be locked up for opening their chewing gum in a suspicious manner. The US had all that before with the 'Reds under the Bed' nauseous campaign, and the imprisonment of American citizens because they had German grandparents (who most likely were gassed in some dreadful place in Poland). I am sure any country has suspects, military and domestic, and after a robbery or murder thay kick butt over having had the suspect under surveillance all the time. But they are bound by Civil Rights, Morals and Common Decency - otherwise we have lost altogether our vision of what Civilisation really means. We might become no better than a bunch of biased thugs, hell bent on genocide. We may become the people that the terrorists see us as being. We must be better than that.
I cannot blame a system that protects Rights.

 

[treeve]

11) Now, if any 'plot' were to exist as to an intended home strike, I would believe anything of a major financial player, either as a strike against political power, or to discredit an unkown group, or to create unrest and unease in the home and international markets. Maybe it was one that went wrong? What was considered to be a swift attack on the market and on the future economy resulted in many more 'acceptable casualties' than intended. A quiet retreat and silence hoping the country's officials will take the blame, perhaps even having a part in the vast series of Conspiracy Theorists. There I would accept an internal arrangement to prevent friends and family taking a flight. I do not know just where or how access could be made to records of 'money transactions', it all seems a bit vague and paranoid to me. One minute the 9/11 Commission are being accused of secrecy the next .... But the truth of the matter is that any company intending to survive in this vicious market has to have contingency plans in hand at all times, the vaguest hint of any difficulties or threats and they take the soft option and sell. It is about making a profit. I feel sorry for those people as they never have a quiet moment to just chill out.
12) When it comes to intelligence gathering and making accusations stick, do remember that in Law, everyone has an inalienable right to defence in court. That means counsel has to work twice as hard as possible and not be accused themselves on not doing their job; guilty or innocent, that is the way Civilisation runs. Any amount of glutius maximus protection is operating in any case. Whatever holes there are in intelligence gathering and evidence verifying for a conclusive case will be a matter for a 'need to know' basis, otherwise it destroys the case. Confusing releases of information as to gathered facts is part of the whole external picture. One issue of a relevant detail could mean whoever is suspected walks away free. That is also how Civilisation works.

 

[ibrowze]

The Official Illusion Of 9/11

Was it David Copperfield who made the Statue of Liberty disappear on TV? As Hitler said, the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. So let's get down to it. There is one thing that can't be denied and that's the laws of physics. Courtesy of www.pilotsfor911truth.org I've been enlightened as to the impossibility of controlling a plane at such a high speed in such a low altitude simply due to air pressure.
There's a photo available on the deeply informative website of Dr Judy Wood which shows the footprint of a collapsed tower on the day of the alleged terrorist attacks showing hardly any debris...now you see it now you don't.
Those buildings were designed and built to withstand such impacts twice over.
Burning jet fuel cannot melt steel girders.
The five photos released by the Pentagon, ha ha ha ha...oops this is hilarious, the Pentagon, surrounded by hoards of CCTV clearly showed no airplane in their five officially released still frames, yet what seems to be exhaust fumes across the lawn. Commercial airliners don't emit exhaust at ground level whereas a missile would !!!
Considering the alleged hijackers supposedly learned to fly in the United States on single engined cessnas, how on earth they were reported to have pulled off those manoeuvres in such Hollywood blockbuster fashion beggars belief.
The BBC reported the collapse of the third building WTC7 about 15 minutes before it actually was 'pulled' as the owner Larry Silverstein admitted on camera.
What caused that white smoke seen rising from the base of the towers before they collapsed??
Black box flight recorders anyone?????
What can explain the earth's magnetic field anomalies on the morning of 9/11?
Why was all the forensic evidence removed immediately while the official investigation took over a year to get under way?
As I watch the footage it seems to me that the buildings disintegrate in a fountain plume of pyroclastic dust rather than 'collapse', however the alleged collapse happened in under ten seconds, almost freefall speed through the path of most resistance into it's own footprint.
Most of the above revealing facts were hidden from a world in shock that was immediately spoonfed THE OFFICIAL CONSPIRACY THEORY which is that 19 arabs armed with box cutters managed to successfully hijack four airliners, without triggering alarm via radio silence or mandatorially monitored transponders, and hit their targets with a seventy five per cent success rate. Now THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE.!!!...unless you believe, hook, line and sinker, what you pay the corporate media to tell you.

 

[treeve]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I simply cannot follow your reasoning; please can you lay out what you see as having happened. Can you point to any specific group of US citizens that perpetrated mass murder of their own to prove a political point.

 

[Halfhidden]

From what I've read this thread is challenging the official events of 9/11 rather than making any accusation of mass murder by any particular group.
As with most conspiracies they come about when facts simply don't fit into a time frame or the event as they should.
I personally have strong suspicions that 9/11 (tragic as it was) was covered up very quickly. But in the day of age people have more access to information and media than ever before.
Just take a look back at Roswell 1945 and tell me that a whole town hallucinated and that Col. Blanchard couldn't tell the difference between a UFO and an air balloon... This was a distinguished RAAF commander.

There again facts emerged later that clearly showed that a cover up had emerged.
personally, I can see that there are more questions than answers about 9/11 and have to congratulate the people who bring them to the forefront.

Perhaps when were done with this we can start a thread about Lady Diane.

 

[prost]

Have you been to www.davidicke.com or www.infowars.com ?


www.towardthelight.org has a page on David Icke. Towards the bottom of that page is a 3 hour talk he did(you don't have to see all of it in one go). It's about seeing the government lies for what they always are & revealing the truth. The human race are slaves to someone else, in a series of dictatorships within many other dictatorships.


Also google "alex jones endgame" because that is a film that shows the horror of the dictatorship that governs our planet. See
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261

 

[treeve]

I do not buy any of the neurotic ravings - least of all anything to do with david icke and the like. Can we keep this discussion on a level ground as to the original question and leave out the wild claims of an abusive world governement system (is anything perfect?).

 

[treeve]

@ Halfhidden - perhaps the problem is in the definition of the claim 'conspiracy' - the definition of that is 'a secret plan or agreement to carry out an illegal or harmful act, esp with political motivation, a plot.' If the claim is not that such a conspiracy took place and that this is claimed to be a unified cover up for inadequacies and errors, of non-action, of improper equipment and in disaster/crisis handling, then the administration are (in my view) guilty of making a mess big time and not reacting to justified public outrage. Scenarios had to be staged and evidence had to be quickly spirited away. I do not see this as a concerted cover up. Everyone is doing what they can to avoid the buck. Separately. I cannot conceive of that much cooperation with the bureaucratic giants that keep the country running. That would require considerable opening of databases of secret files, sensitive files that other departments will never know; it works because of that. The more that is known by someone, the more that can be elicited from him/her. Silence is security. Whether in concert or separately, it is not a conspiracy. The country cannot cooperate in times of peace, so why in a terrorist situation is that expected to be any different?
One other point I would like to make is that generally speaking the American jounalist is a wolf. No trail is left unturned, the American leaders and officials all know this. So, why concert a unified effort that is ineptly and hurredly pasted together be allowed to circulate; they know if it has holes in it the innards will be seen, plain as a pikestaff; they may not be the brightest pack in the world, but they are not idiots. American politicians are already neurotic enough, and would not trust their posterior in the hands of anyone else. They allowed a terrible event to happen with devastating results. Some of it not actually the 'fault' of any specific person or agency. But the US lives in a Blame Culture. Heads will roll? Not mine.....

I have just checked on various websites and the claim is that it is a conspiracy of the highest order, being orchestrated by one or other or all US, Iraq and Israeli Governments. What a load of tosh.

 

[ibrowze]

Treeve, you seem to be an expert on these matters. Please tell me exactly what happened on 911.....in your own words. Please address some of the points I made such as the lack of video footage from the Pentagon.

 

[Halfhidden]

This thread is going off topic and clearly in danger of becoming personal.
Remember that this is a discussion on the events of 911 and that everyone is allowed an opinion.
We are not here to change the world we are a small website with a bunch of guys having a topical conversation.

 

[treeve]

The US was caught bending down, all the frailties of American self inflated balloon were exploited by whoever committed the crime.
Whatever evidence there was/is, you can bet your last dime it will have either been spirited away or destroyed and incriminating evidence of gross neglect in dereliction of duty or in provision of faulty equipment or in a security plan that was hopelessly inadequate. A country that because of it insular geographical location and self perceived power considered itself safe. I believe the 'powers' failed their people miserably. I would not at all be surprised that some of the confusing 'facts' and footage is placed deliberately on official levels, I would not be surprised that some evidence by 'amateurs' are deliberately placed by departments working to provide confusing evidence. A major aspect of American Culture (another oxymoron) is that Truth is almost not a part of their picture.
Just to set the scene as to my feelings.
I do not approve of the tentacles spreading in military controls, commercial controls, bigotry, subjugation, removal of Civil Rights.
I am not a pro US Government fanatic. I do not approve of fanaticism at all.
A by-product of secrecy and misinformation is that it feeds the fire of mistrust, and on the embers of that fire grow the phoenix of hatred, racism, bigotry and a world wide undermining of the establishment.

As I said before, the US agencies have firstly two options, silence or honesty. Honesty will cost them money. They also have the option of allowing discreditation being applied to 'conspiracy theorist' as being 'off the wall' or even adding to the flames themselves. That is what they do best. Look back to McCarthyism. Look at the Ku Klux Klan. You want Truth? It is not a part of the US establishment.

 

[Pokerboy]

Well I wish I had stayed in now to continue on the debate thank you ibrowze for highlighting some important points and events that happened on 9/11 which even now haven't been answered. I was getting around to making these points myself later in the discussion but you beat me to it

I would like to say after reading through the entire topic from start to present I'm generally pleased with the level of response and the opinions of others so far so please keep up the participation, although a couple of posts aren't on topic and have heavily suggested that without evidence proving such 'theories' then they are inconclusive and should be dismissed, sadly this is the whole point of a conspiracy theory it is based on unanswered questions and events leading up to and after the event itself, 9/11 is one that holds lots of weight compared with other conspiracy theories out there.

Prost welcome to the community and thank you for your links I have followed Alex Jones he does some good work, I do hope we hear more from you throughout this debate.

I look forward to hearing more opinions on this topic and please if you do have links to sites/videos or other material which will help benefit your point or others than please do share

 

[treeve]

If by any obscene reason the idea of a foul up on a grand scale is eliminated from the scenario, we return to the claim of a conspiracy per se, I would like to know the threadstarter's view of widespread claims that the US was complicit in the events as they happened. That the US, Israeli and Iraqi governments were involved in collusion. That is a collusion in which I can see no basis in military terms or political terms. With the events of 1991 as a background, I find no plausible scenario.

Another point, much is being made of the likelihood of a building collapsing under air collision without the effects of internally applied correctly positioned explosives. This is being seen as a direct pointer to official control. If the reports are based on what happened, rather than what appears in retrospect to have happened, it could as being a continuation of the work of those who perpetrated the attack. Suicide bombs on a major scale? Tell me, who will admit to the building not being under surveillance or to allowing explosives into the building?

 

[Pokerboy]

firstly how am I myself supposed to answer a question on the internal actions of the US/Israeli or Iraqi governments or support/show collusion when as you know full well I have no right of access to such information.

In response to your second point about WTC security may i share with you an event which caused huge press and publicity.

The event took place on August 7th 1974 and a man called Philippe Petit stepped out on a wire connecting New York's twin towers (WTC buildings).
Following six and a half years of dreaming, Petit spent eight months in NYC planning the execution of the coup. Aided by a team of friends and accomplices, Petit had to find a way to bypass the WTC's security; to smuggle the heavy steel cable and rigging equipment into the towers; to pass the wire between the two rooftops; to anchor the wire and tension it to withstand the winds and the swaying of the buildings.

this became known as "the artistic crime of the century"

The security in WTC buildings from what I have researched has not really changed over the years, even after this extraordinary event occurred security was not tightened or enhanced.
The beauty of the 1974 event is Petit organised and consolidated with the press and other media to broadcast his achievement without any of his plans being brought to the attention of WTC buildings or its staff until the event was under way.

I have previously mentioned and can see others have too that explosives may have been used to bring down the Towers on 9/11 but many have asked how this could of been done without being seen well, smuggling explosives and chargers into the WTC may have been quite an easy job as I have learned the buildings (both Towers) were in fact undergoing renovation and reinforcement work on the build up to 9/11 so in my opinion it would of seemed easy and plausible to smuggle anything into the buildings as who's going to continually stop and search every builder or contractor that enters and leaves the building ?

You can read more about this event on this website http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2003/jan/19/features.magazine57
and you can also watch the DVD that was released by www.iconfilm.co.uk called "man on wire"

 

[treeve]

OK so the conspiracy per se is a part of the question.

Your point about Msr Petit only underlines just the scenario that I see, a pathetic lack of security. Incidentally I have been trying to watch footage to bolster my memory of the horrific scene as it unfolded.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/multimedia.day.html
holds footage, but they refuse to open on my pc. Neither in Media centre or Quicktime. I do not have Real. Is there another source of footage?

Bush may have been what is politely called an idiot, but a viscious conspirator? the man barely had enough intelligence in him to complete his 'coloring' books, or was that the self effacing effect he desired?

Any conspiratorial investigation should start with the origins of the conspiracy, not in its effects. Lack of evidence or the provision of conflicting evidence neither is proof nor disproof. In view of the pressure from theorists and claimants, the only expected result on an internal and external level is a total clam up. The mire will get deeper, the gulf wider. All that can be hoped for is upon the death of one or more of any possible conspirators is for some self protecting evidence having been saved that will become within the public gaze, until then it will remain postulation and anti American. The US will not break in this, of that you can be sure.

 

[Pokerboy]

okay I've been researching for a while on various ways you can view video content without having to use Real Player or other 3rd party plug-ins or products.
By going through most of the content on the CNN site almost every clip both audio and video is compressed in real format so it can easily be streamed and viewed without causing any huge overheads on the servers. which is all designed to make viewing material effortless and hassle free to the end user. This style streaming is fast and cheap but requires all users to download AJax, Flash, Java, Pearl and other forms of scripts in order to view the content fully although this is generally excepted among internet users these days it can be a burden to keep on top of script updates and so forth, so I've found this site below.

I've managed to find a rather interesting website which is like an online library of films, documentaries, TV shows you name it they have it here is a link www.veoh.com and they have a compilation of some very good 9/11 news streams and official clips etc.

this site is designed to stream video & audio on the web page and it does not require any 3rd party flash or script bolt on, BUT to view the full clip you need to download the Veoh manager which decrypts the data format in order to see the full clip, this software is free and is small in size.

I will continue my hunt for other alternatives but its gong to take a short while.

In regards to G.W.Bush well personally (my opinion) is how the hell did someone so mundane and simple minded get to be the worlds most powerful man ?

 

[treeve]

Thank you .. ps I was asking what your feelings were on whether or not the 'indident' was an internal or externally generated event. no one knows what is going on, least of all the American public.
On the subject of collapse, I found this ....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/sunder.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/sund-flash.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/cons-flash.html
Other areas can be explored as you wish.
But it explains as to why some documents and data is so far unavailaible, in that such concentration had to be expended in the causes of collaspse of The Twin Towers, that investigation was delayed for World Trade Centre 7. The stills also demonstrated (without being specifically addressed) as to the explosive sounds reported. The twin towers were some 1360 feet in height. When the structure (a box column and lattice girder system) finally became unstable, the upper floors collapsed through the lower storeys in free fall, basic gravitational pull gives us 32 feet per second squared. The impetus and energy of impact upon the storey below would have been immense. At each level the impact would be greater. At each stage materials would be pulverised into dust, carrying inflamed portions of the upper floors, resulting in the pyroclastic ball of poisonous and invasive mix enveloping all around it. Weight has no effect on gravitational pull of itself. But weight coupled with speed does on the receiving structure. The accelerated speed upon the tower, by the time it reached the lower storeys would be travelling at some 270 feet per second (180 miles per hour). This can be slowed by impact at each floor and the cushioning effect of pockets of air, but even then a conservative estimate would be 300,000 tons moving at 100 miles per hour. The towers were built off solid rock, as the site was landfill for a depth of 70 feet.
Whilst it is no comfort to those that perished or their grieving families, 87 % of the occupants of the towers got out before collapse. 14,000 more people would have been at risk if the attacks were conducted later in the day. That to me is another pointer of an external attack.
I know I resisted the use of sprayed fire protection in the form used on the towers structure, as it is too prone to damage, and not necessarily from aircraft.

 

[treeve]

Having now also seen a massive collection of poorly assembled and copied z squared to the power of N number of times, mainly put together by theorists, I can say that there is a measurable degree of of swing in my thoughts as to just what happened. I can see a considerable degree of altered video for the purpose of later sales, which does nothing to help either 'cause'. A manipulated image of an event like that begs more questions than it solves. I am therefore not satisfied that video reporting is correct or genuine. I am completely dissatisfied with whatever is reported to have happened to the Pentagon. I am extremely dissatisfied with what is reported to have happened with the twin towers. In the latter there is a distinct situation that indicates an attached pod, from which a missile is fired; plane impact does not coincide with a penetrating 'flash'; in the first the shadow is clearly not coincident with what appears to be an explosive flash; the Pentagon aeroplane has disintegrated to zero, the tailplane even. The major factor is that the planes in the videos are not domestic flights or with domestic decals, in the second hit the plane appears not even to have the ususal stripe of windows. None of this of necessity indicates an inside job, but I am minded of your comment 'mundane and simple'; when interviewed on the event he states that he saw the first hit on TV, which is an impossibility.
Thereby may be your answer, arrange for an unobservant buffoon to be 'in charge of the country'.

There is some issue about the recordings being doctored as far as passing TV helicopters and smoke billows, but that only indicates the TV company trying to make some visual 'improvement' - however it also indicates that someone was trying to produce a wrong image. BUT in all of this, I have to ask, if there is a missile in the video, why is it still there and not removed from all issued recordings? Perhaps it would draw attention to the fact of its removal digitally? Assuming some would have made their own videos on the day.
It is quite normal for TV footage to be altered or enhanced for DVD issue.
The planes were not the ones in domestic flights, so what happened to the passengers? If they were not flown by terrorists, who was flying them and who got paid for their deaths? What happened to the planes that were 'switched'? Were the passengers fakes on paper?

 

[treeve]

Something bothers me about the seemingly spontaneous speech following the school visit - it is read from a prepared set of papers. It was only the realisation following the second hit that it was not a terrible accident, the papers are instantly removed from the desk by Bush himself, is not that normally done by an aide? That the country was under attack was reported to him whilst he was quietly sitting with the schoolchildren. How long does it take to prepare a speech and to get it printed and approved. Fast work by his staff, typed up in the car?

 

[Pokerboy]

Well thank you for your links Treeve they make good reading and show things a little differently to what I've already learnt which is nice to see, keep up the contributions.
I have noticed you have referred to the particular style of aircraft not fitting in with normal passenger airliners this is a very intriguing fact I have not personally picked up on even when watching official footage from the BBC, SKY and CNN.

Some might remember that a few of the flights were associated with phone calls to loved ones and so forth on flight 93 (the one that completely disappeared and was shot down) had numerous cell phone calls made to land over a duration of 25 minuets at 35,000 to 42,000 feet, this is imposable well it was at the time of 2001 the technology was only invented in 2004 and is now only active in military/private airliners. Also flight 11 had 2 phone calls made via its on board seat phones by air crew members, whilst lots of controversy surrounds the recordings one very large fact stands to highlight some sort of 3rd party interaction or cover up, at the time American Airlines Aircraft (passenger long haul) were not fitted with in seat phones and this was made public knowledge by AA 1 year after 9/11 when they unveiled their new in flight seat phone system at a press conference for Airliner Traders.

Here i have a link to watch a very informational video which highlights points in theory and fact against fact and official reports it really is well worth a watch everything is seen in an empirical way http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/news/watch/v6381118tsYcFrsS

Also for the readers on the site this book by Dr David Ray Griffin makes good reading and his video/presentation above is covered in this but in a lot more detail http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBw

I've seen footage on G.W.Bush in school talking to children on the day of 9/11 this is an area I find very odd I mean any normal politician or highly ranking official would be pulled out of any such meeting in the event of an attack on their country (especially if they were just down the road). I've never noticed the prepared speech papers I've been mesmerized by his expressionless face when he was first informed of the horrific news, and then he returned to talking with staff and children I mean WHY do this it does not make sense to me.
I would imagine it would take a while to prepared such papers ready for presentation there is a formal chain to go through before the papers are suitable for release in any format, but maybe they did do the papers in the car who knows.

I'm still amazed about the new links and explanations which are emerging from everyone who's gotten involved in this thread and I thank all of you for sharing your personal and professional feelings towards this event, like I've already mentioned all opinions are welcomed i mean it wouldn't be a debate otherwise would it