trepolpen
Major Contributor
Hello, 46Traveller,
Thanks for your reply which I appreciate for its sincerity. When I read statements such as yours, however, it’s hard to know where to start. In part, I understand well where you are coming from but I can’t help feeling that the fictional ‘The Da Vinci Code’ or Dawkin’s ‘The God Delusion’ have become your Bibles. In no way is the real Bible one human’s work or one man’s literature, but a library or compendium of ideas, allegorical teachings, metaphors, factual history, teaching stories, songs and poetry gathered under one pair of covers.
Christianity, in the form of Roman Catholicism, is the interpretation of the Bible by one Church with the Pope at its helm as Christ’s representative. Thus instead of the thousand and one sects which take things literally and often on a fundamentalist basis, the Church unifies Christ’s message by its traditional understanding rather than by the precise words as found in the Bible and continues to interpret with one voice through the college of its cardinals, archbishops, bishops and priests. It presents an ideal which is to be attained to during our short human lives as we look to returning home to the Father. After all, when we have left this world as mortal flesh, what will be left of us? Nothing unless we take Christ’s word for it and believe that our spirits survive. Was the Christ presented by the New Testament a charlatan or did he mean what He said? Can you find fault with his words? If you can, then it is probably because as God’s mouthpiece the concepts are not something to be grasped without consideration. His words have not been altered but tempered and refined for a world which has passed through different times and cultures just as the Old Testament shows. In fact, there are many modern situations which are not covered directly by the Bible though there are also certain absolutes which can never be altered.
As you so rightly say, some Popes and so-called upholders of the Church have badly let Christ’s ideals down and for them there is little excuse but that does not alter the fundamental truths or disparage those who have lived up to Christ’s ideals in an exemplary way. Look! In simplistic terms, this is not to say, as the R. Catholic I am, that one must be a RC to get to heaven. I am utterly certain that nobody is denied passage unless they deliberately, wilfully and knowingly isolate themselves from God’s love themselves. There is more than one sincere way to God’s kingdom. None of us is worthy of God’s promise but then He is the perfect father and loves us unconditionally. However, He is also perfectly polite and does not force Himself upon us. We have free will and are His sons and daughters, not His slaves or robots. Nevertheless, Christ, as God manifested on earth, was trying to show us that our happiness is only possible in this life by perfect selflessness. That this was very difficult, Christ showed by His own suffering during His own mortal life, but guaranteed that all would be prepared for us when we should return to Him in heaven.
What you have said, TabTab is very fair comment and I share very many of your thoughts. Too many to comment on them in fact! No-one ever convinced another by mere words and I shall not try to do so. In so many ways, Christians have failed to match up to their fine words and I’m one of them. This is the paramount reason why God’s kingdom is not visible on earth. However, Christ’s truths though rarely translated into the lives of Christians underpin subliminally all cultures where there are good human qualities to be found, regardless of creed. In fact, Gandhi said ‘I like your Christ but I don’t like your Christians and he had a good point. My wife’s old Devonian great grandmother used to quote ‘’Ansom is as ansom does’! Nevertheless, where religion is concerned, it is the truths that we need to recognize before we choose to pursue them and faith (i.e trust in Christ’s promises), is all in religion.
It is easy to sympathise with your attitude towards the alleged wealth of the Church but since much of this is wrapped up in the untouchable form of revered historical artifacts and books and museum pieces which were the work, bequests and donations of generous pilgrims and artists and the faithful over centuries it is not easy to translate them into hard cash - though much has been sold off over the years. Let us not forget the necessary running costs of a universal church on a worldwide scale. I confess that I have no facts or figures to declare myself.
I also see what you mean about ritual which you refer to as archaic. This is partly the effect of tradition which should never be thrown off will-nilly but it is also for believers a way of applying solemnity and recognizing God’s majesty. It is human nature that we invest all important occasions in our lives with a degree of pomp and ceremony whether of a secular or religious nature eg birth and naming days, special dinners, investitures, celebrational parties, prize-givings, weddings, speeches, memorials, special music, clothes, words etc. It is also true to say that sometimes informality is more relaxing and requires less of an effort particularly in this age when we are more inclined to lose a sense of occasion and bring things down to a mundane level. With the church ceremonies, the intention is to rise above this and to direct our thoughts beyond this world by symbol and ritual, to give a sense of moment to an important occasion. Holy Communion is for me Christ actually being with me and empowering me in my daily attempt to get closer to Him and to show it in my daily life away from the interior of church and the Sunday Mass. As has been said, ‘The Church is full of hypocrites – come inside, there’s room for plenty more!’
This life is largely a mystery and as such, we can never have all the answers since such is the nature of God and the complexity of his creation of the universe. One thing is sure – once again, unless Jesus Christ was a charlatan and a liar - God does not intend to annihilate us, his beloved creation. I feel that God does not ever condemn us even if his earthly representatives have done so over the ages. We condemn ourselves by separating ourselves from Him. He seeks our ultimate happiness but it is up to us humbly and with trust to make a sincere effort along the way but not to imagine that we can deserve it or earn it.
These are my thoughts and the way I see things but everyone has his/her own conscience and opinion and yes that will surely be the same God who remains hidden within us.
Thanks for your reply which I appreciate for its sincerity. When I read statements such as yours, however, it’s hard to know where to start. In part, I understand well where you are coming from but I can’t help feeling that the fictional ‘The Da Vinci Code’ or Dawkin’s ‘The God Delusion’ have become your Bibles. In no way is the real Bible one human’s work or one man’s literature, but a library or compendium of ideas, allegorical teachings, metaphors, factual history, teaching stories, songs and poetry gathered under one pair of covers.
Christianity, in the form of Roman Catholicism, is the interpretation of the Bible by one Church with the Pope at its helm as Christ’s representative. Thus instead of the thousand and one sects which take things literally and often on a fundamentalist basis, the Church unifies Christ’s message by its traditional understanding rather than by the precise words as found in the Bible and continues to interpret with one voice through the college of its cardinals, archbishops, bishops and priests. It presents an ideal which is to be attained to during our short human lives as we look to returning home to the Father. After all, when we have left this world as mortal flesh, what will be left of us? Nothing unless we take Christ’s word for it and believe that our spirits survive. Was the Christ presented by the New Testament a charlatan or did he mean what He said? Can you find fault with his words? If you can, then it is probably because as God’s mouthpiece the concepts are not something to be grasped without consideration. His words have not been altered but tempered and refined for a world which has passed through different times and cultures just as the Old Testament shows. In fact, there are many modern situations which are not covered directly by the Bible though there are also certain absolutes which can never be altered.
As you so rightly say, some Popes and so-called upholders of the Church have badly let Christ’s ideals down and for them there is little excuse but that does not alter the fundamental truths or disparage those who have lived up to Christ’s ideals in an exemplary way. Look! In simplistic terms, this is not to say, as the R. Catholic I am, that one must be a RC to get to heaven. I am utterly certain that nobody is denied passage unless they deliberately, wilfully and knowingly isolate themselves from God’s love themselves. There is more than one sincere way to God’s kingdom. None of us is worthy of God’s promise but then He is the perfect father and loves us unconditionally. However, He is also perfectly polite and does not force Himself upon us. We have free will and are His sons and daughters, not His slaves or robots. Nevertheless, Christ, as God manifested on earth, was trying to show us that our happiness is only possible in this life by perfect selflessness. That this was very difficult, Christ showed by His own suffering during His own mortal life, but guaranteed that all would be prepared for us when we should return to Him in heaven.
What you have said, TabTab is very fair comment and I share very many of your thoughts. Too many to comment on them in fact! No-one ever convinced another by mere words and I shall not try to do so. In so many ways, Christians have failed to match up to their fine words and I’m one of them. This is the paramount reason why God’s kingdom is not visible on earth. However, Christ’s truths though rarely translated into the lives of Christians underpin subliminally all cultures where there are good human qualities to be found, regardless of creed. In fact, Gandhi said ‘I like your Christ but I don’t like your Christians and he had a good point. My wife’s old Devonian great grandmother used to quote ‘’Ansom is as ansom does’! Nevertheless, where religion is concerned, it is the truths that we need to recognize before we choose to pursue them and faith (i.e trust in Christ’s promises), is all in religion.
It is easy to sympathise with your attitude towards the alleged wealth of the Church but since much of this is wrapped up in the untouchable form of revered historical artifacts and books and museum pieces which were the work, bequests and donations of generous pilgrims and artists and the faithful over centuries it is not easy to translate them into hard cash - though much has been sold off over the years. Let us not forget the necessary running costs of a universal church on a worldwide scale. I confess that I have no facts or figures to declare myself.
I also see what you mean about ritual which you refer to as archaic. This is partly the effect of tradition which should never be thrown off will-nilly but it is also for believers a way of applying solemnity and recognizing God’s majesty. It is human nature that we invest all important occasions in our lives with a degree of pomp and ceremony whether of a secular or religious nature eg birth and naming days, special dinners, investitures, celebrational parties, prize-givings, weddings, speeches, memorials, special music, clothes, words etc. It is also true to say that sometimes informality is more relaxing and requires less of an effort particularly in this age when we are more inclined to lose a sense of occasion and bring things down to a mundane level. With the church ceremonies, the intention is to rise above this and to direct our thoughts beyond this world by symbol and ritual, to give a sense of moment to an important occasion. Holy Communion is for me Christ actually being with me and empowering me in my daily attempt to get closer to Him and to show it in my daily life away from the interior of church and the Sunday Mass. As has been said, ‘The Church is full of hypocrites – come inside, there’s room for plenty more!’
This life is largely a mystery and as such, we can never have all the answers since such is the nature of God and the complexity of his creation of the universe. One thing is sure – once again, unless Jesus Christ was a charlatan and a liar - God does not intend to annihilate us, his beloved creation. I feel that God does not ever condemn us even if his earthly representatives have done so over the ages. We condemn ourselves by separating ourselves from Him. He seeks our ultimate happiness but it is up to us humbly and with trust to make a sincere effort along the way but not to imagine that we can deserve it or earn it.
These are my thoughts and the way I see things but everyone has his/her own conscience and opinion and yes that will surely be the same God who remains hidden within us.
